Nice one! Incidentally aficionados, I also had, in late '71, a CA95 Benly (150cc, single carb, US 7/8" tubular handlebars & suspended front 'winkers' off the 'bars). There appears to also have been a C95 (pressed steel handlebars & little, slitty front winkers) and a CS95 (S for Sport? [hi-piper, down both flanks] which also had the low, flat, pressed steel 'bars). Qs: 1) was there a CS72/77 in the USA? (I don't believe it was officially imported into UK) If so, can anyone post any pics please? 2) Did the C72/77 have the low, pressed steel 'bars, as did the C92/95? I don't think we ever got the C(A)72/77 in much volume - if at all - in the UK. Our CB72/77 was called the Dream 250(/300) Super Sport. MS now has a scan from a copy of Motor Cycle of the era proving this, so I know I ain't senile just yet!
No prizes for predicting who will be the first to offer answers to these trivia! Over to you, lm......
CA95, C95, CS76, Etc.
Thanks piecutter. I'd have lost a bet there! (I reckon lm must have internet connectivity problems.....)
So, what's the deal with the 76? I take it that's the annotation of the earlier 305 motor? Ergo: S (Sport - high pipes) A (America - high riser 'bars). I've looked at some VJMC pics and noticed that you don't see too many CA-models with winkers hanging off the 'bars. Sorry, my 'anorak' side is showing now; it's part of the OCD affliction - I just have to know! BTW: has anyone else out there tried lemon & chilli sawdust cheesecake, smothered in Mobil Super 1? Or am I the only normal person on this forum? PS: this is an interesting site http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_C77
Last edited by e3steve on Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Should make this a new topic, really,.........as it's in the wrong category. But I just want to let you know, piecutter, that I think I've spotted the C76 engine difference: 305 with a dry sump?
I now remember reading somewhere that apparently the 76 motor was a bit of a disastrous precursor to the brilliant, bomb-proof 77. I guess Honda found that out early on, which is why there are so few 76s surviving and they were only made for a short time.
It's a bit like finding one of our (British) last half-decent efforts at building a sports car - the Triumph Stag - that still has its orginal 3-litre V8 engine. So many who loved the Stag nailed-in a Rover 3.5 V8 (Buick-derived) or an iron Ford 3-litre V6 (from the Ford Executive/Zodiac/Capri etc) because the original all-alloy Triumph motor was prone to overheating and warping its heads. All that was actually wrong there was that, being an alloy water jacket, it was (still is) a cardinal sin to use water - other than de-ionised - as a coolant. The water was corroding and eroding the alloy, circulating it in the cooling system until it got to a point where it could coagulate and clog the circulation - the radiator! The veins in the rad were a little on the narrow side and thus blocked easily. You can guess what happened from thereonin..... An old pal back in UK has an all-original '76 Stag - beautiful in Mimosa yellow - both original hard- & soft-tops, a/c (unusual in UK). Replaced the radiator and rebuilt the original engine in '85 and has only ever used a coolant designed for alloy motors, Toyota 'Forlife', and it's never, ever overheated and still survives to this day. I'm rambling.... Anyway, the point of this little monologue is that I'm so glad that Honda sought out a solution to the 76, or we'd probably be riding around on Hond-ukis or Kawasa-das now, searching for an original 76 motor to put right our steeds! Japanese foresight & tenacity vs British make-do & mend.....
Last edited by e3steve on Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
The engine that eventually surfaced as the wet-sump 250 & 305 Dream motor first emerged in ?1956/1957, in a bike called the C70.
The C70 was a 250cc pressed-frame bike (very similar ?identical frame to the later bikes), and was called the Dream for the home market. It was usually seen with a single seat & rack, with clip-on pillion pad. The C75 was the 305cc version. They had the same square head-light/shocks, leading link forks, etc - visually it it is very, very similar to the later bikes. The engine was dry sumped, very similar to the later C71/C76 engine, but with no electric starter & 6v electrics. Pressed bars, etc, and none exported to my knowledge. The C71/C76 were later developments, from 1958 onwards. Not much had changed visually, but they were fitted with electric starters. They were exported to Europe & the US, and other markets, possibly only in dual-seat configuration, but not sure. A C71 was shown in the Netherlands in ?1958 , and I think, shown at the Earls court show in either 1958 or (more likely) 1959. Only a small handful made it to the UK, more made it to the Netherlands & possibly Germany, where some survive. There was a CA76, and possibly a CA71, both American versions with higher tubular bars, but the standard pressed-bar C71 & C76 were also sold in the US. Again, only handfuls were exported, but to most markets, Australia & Europe especially. There were also the 'Dream Sport' bikes with high pipes, the CS71 & CS76 & CSA71 & CSA76. I think only the CS76 & CSA76 made it to the States, but the CS71 made it to Europe, possibly Australia. The really rare bike of them all fits in here - the CE71 Dream Sport, possibly the most sought-after bike out there. A dry-sumped engine, in the same pressed frame, with tubular bars, low pipes & dual seat. They were exported to the US & Europe, a bit over 400 were made & they were all recalled, with most scrapped. A few survive. Another rare bike was the CB71 - another sports version of the dry sump bikes. It was only available in Japan, and it seems only in limited numbers. It was very reminiscent of the CB92 - pressed frame, flat 'ace' bars, fly screen, low megaphone pipes, cut down rear guard, cycle-style front guard, angular tank with the 'wrap-over' rubber pad of the CB92. The bikes that we are all familiar with - the C72/C77 & CA72/C77 were available from 1960, although the CA72/CA77 wasn't available until 1961, and a 1960 C72/C77 would be a very rare bike, most came out in 1961 too. These bike were made until 1966, although it seems that because of the way US bikes are dated, many are reffered to as 1967 or even 1968 models. These bikes saw a completly redesigned engine - a wet-sump engine with many internal differences, essentially a new motor, with electric start & 12v system. As before, the C72/77 had pressed bars & the CA72/77 had high tubular bars, beyond that there were only detail differance, mainly, indicators were fitted to non-US bikes & diferent indicators were fitted to German bikes, to suit their laws. The C72/C77 was exported to Europe, Britain, Australia & other markets, and sold in some numbers, although as it was comparitively expensive, not as well as hoped. Anti-Japanese sentiment was still rife, and in the UK, manufacturers like BSA & Triumph attempted to blackmail dealers into not selling Jap bikes. Also, long-term, the pressed frames did not survive the salted roads well, and hence they are rare in Britain now. Again, many made it to the Netherlands. In the states, some pressed-bar C72/77's were imported, but the vast majority were the CA versions, and I'm not sure the pressed-bar bikes were available beyond 1961. There were Sports dreams again, with the CS72 being available, along side a CS77. A handful probably were exported, although probably not to the US - a few I think made it to Australia, and Europe, but they seem to mostly exist in japan - I know a japanese enthusiast with a CS72. Of course, the 'other' bike was the CB72/CB77, available from 1961 onwards, with a modern tubular frame & a tuned, twin-carb engine. That's another story ;) I hope that heps some of you interested in these early bikes. What do I have? I'm in Australia, for a start, and own a 1960 C76, a rare-ish 1961 CA72 (american import, number 42 off the line), a '62 & 63 C77 (with tubular bars,m but they are C77's, just to show how Honda altered things along the way), and am building a CB71 replica based on a C77 frame. Rob.
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