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How do you set the float height to specs?

Fuel System: Gas (Petrol) tanks, Carburators
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Snakeoil
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On today's episode of Myth Busters...

Post by Snakeoil » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:26 pm

Spoke at length with Ed Moore today on the topic of jetting and float levels. He had posted his number in a PM and his timing was perfect because today I had decided to determine what the actual fuel level is in the bowl, at the angle the carb is on the bike for the various measurement points discussed here, namely, gasket surface, notch or lip. Secondary to that was to determine what the correct fuel level should be and what the corresponding float height turns out to be for that level.

Armed with what has been mentioned here and the CL72 manual which shows the fuel level in the diagram with the carburetor bore level and provides a dimension "H" which is from the bore base to the top of the fuel level. But nowhere do they give "H" for the CL/CB 72/77 engines.

Looking at the diagram, it appeared to me that the fuel level, when the bore is level, is just below the bowl gasket surface.

So, I wanted to verify that point. To do so, I machined a small nylon fitting that screws into the bowl drain hole and would accept a 1/8" piece of clear plastic tubing that would reflect fuel level in the bowl. This is my sight tube.

Image

I mounted my carb to a piece of wood and clamped it my vise so the bore was level.

I put a small funnel in the end of the fuel supply tubing and kept it above the level of the carb. I poured gasoline into the funnel until the fuel level in the supply line was up to the funnel and remained there. This indicated that the float valve had closed and the max fuel level in the bowl was now established.

I then looked at the fuel level in the clear sight tube and it told me that the fuel level with the float set at 22.5 mm from the notch was indeed just below the gasket surface of the bowl.

Here is a shot of that with a scale held along the bowl to provide a comparison to the fuel level in the sight tube. As you can see, the fuel level is just under if not level with the gasket surface of the bowl.

Image

That told me that 22.5mm from the notch appears to be correct for a level carburetor. And that is all it told me.

I then set out to duplicate the carb position as it is mounted on the engine and to measure fuel levels at various float settings.

I measured the angle of the head intake port with both tires on the ground and then set the carb in my vise to that same angle.

With the float still set at 22.5mm from the notch, here is a picture of the level in the bowl.

Image

The steel scale is set at the bowl gasket surface and is set dead level. You can see that the fuel level is way above the gasket suface at the front (engine side) of the carb.

So, the next test was to reset the float level to Loud Mouse's recommendation, which is the top of the jet holder.

To start, I measured both jet holders in both carbs and they were within 0.010" of each other relative to height from a given point on the carb body.

With the float set to the top of the jet holder, here is a picture of the fuel level in the bowl.

Image

As you can see, it did not change a lot, but it did go down, which is to be expected. It appears to still be slightly above the gasket surface, but not as much as before.

Based on this, I concluded that for my particular bike, this is where I want the floats set. I would not go any higher for fear of starving the engine of fuel at prolonged high RPM/load.

So I measured from the top of the jet holder to the 3 possible locations from which one could measure float height and recorded the dimensions. They were:

1. Bowl gasket surface of carb body - 28mm
2. Notch - 26mm
3. Lip around gasket - 24.5mm

With this done, I made another observation because the evidence presented itself.

Both of my floats were stained from fuel and there were distinct level lines on them. So, I kept the carb at the angel when on the bike and then set the float so the lines were level. Here is a picture of what I observed.

Image

As you can see, the boldest line is above the gasket surface. There are other lines which are lower. I suspect there are multiple lines from the bike being parked on the side stand and center stand and the angles changing. The most prominent one is at the top and coincides with the 22.5mm from the notch float setting. But I must say that I'm not sure these lines can really tell you anything since you will never know if the bike was always on the side stand or center stand or if it was parked on unlevel ground for a long period of time. But it was interesting to see that the level in the bowl was for some extended period, above the gasket surface.

So, my conclusion as mentioned above it that the Loud Mouse setting of the top of the jet is what I believe is correct and what I will use from here on out.

regards,
Rob

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garncarz
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Post by garncarz » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:22 pm

FWIW, here is a screen shot from the shop manual about float height setting (C77).
Attachments
pw22 float height.png
pw22 float height.png (362.16 KiB) Viewed 6236 times

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G-Man
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Re: On today's episode of Myth Busters...

Post by G-Man » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:06 pm

Snakeoil wrote:Spoke at length with Ed Moore today on the topic of jetting and float levels. He had posted his number in a PM and his timing was perfect because today I had decided to determine what the actual fuel level is in the bowl, at the angle the carb is on the bike for the various measurement points discussed here, namely, gasket surface, notch or lip. Secondary to that was to determine what the correct fuel level should be and what the corresponding float height turns out to be for that level.

Armed with what has been mentioned here and the CL72 manual which shows the fuel level in the diagram with the carburetor bore level and provides a dimension "H" which is from the bore base to the top of the fuel level. But nowhere do they give "H" for the CL/CB 72/77 engines.

Looking at the diagram, it appeared to me that the fuel level, when the bore is level, is just below the bowl gasket surface.

So, I wanted to verify that point. To do so, I machined a small nylon fitting that screws into the bowl drain hole and would accept a 1/8" piece of clear plastic tubing that would reflect fuel level in the bowl. This is my sight tube.

Image

I mounted my carb to a piece of wood and clamped it my vise so the bore was level.

I put a small funnel in the end of the fuel supply tubing and kept it above the level of the carb. I poured gasoline into the funnel until the fuel level in the supply line was up to the funnel and remained there. This indicated that the float valve had closed and the max fuel level in the bowl was now established.

I then looked at the fuel level in the clear sight tube and it told me that the fuel level with the float set at 22.5 mm from the notch was indeed just below the gasket surface of the bowl.

Here is a shot of that with a scale held along the bowl to provide a comparison to the fuel level in the sight tube. As you can see, the fuel level is just under if not level with the gasket surface of the bowl.

Image

That told me that 22.5mm from the notch appears to be correct for a level carburetor. And that is all it told me.

I then set out to duplicate the carb position as it is mounted on the engine and to measure fuel levels at various float settings.

I measured the angle of the head intake port with both tires on the ground and then set the carb in my vise to that same angle.

With the float still set at 22.5mm from the notch, here is a picture of the level in the bowl.

Image

The steel scale is set at the bowl gasket surface and is set dead level. You can see that the fuel level is way above the gasket suface at the front (engine side) of the carb.

So, the next test was to reset the float level to Loud Mouse's recommendation, which is the top of the jet holder.

To start, I measured both jet holders in both carbs and they were within 0.010" of each other relative to height from a given point on the carb body.

With the float set to the top of the jet holder, here is a picture of the fuel level in the bowl.

Image

As you can see, it did not change a lot, but it did go down, which is to be expected. It appears to still be slightly above the gasket surface, but not as much as before.

Based on this, I concluded that for my particular bike, this is where I want the floats set. I would not go any higher for fear of starving the engine of fuel at prolonged high RPM/load.

So I measured from the top of the jet holder to the 3 possible locations from which one could measure float height and recorded the dimensions. They were:

1. Bowl gasket surface of carb body - 28mm
2. Notch - 26mm
3. Lip around gasket - 24.5mm

With this done, I made another observation because the evidence presented itself.

Both of my floats were stained from fuel and there were distinct level lines on them. So, I kept the carb at the angel when on the bike and then set the float so the lines were level. Here is a picture of what I observed.

Image

As you can see, the boldest line is above the gasket surface. There are other lines which are lower. I suspect there are multiple lines from the bike being parked on the side stand and center stand and the angles changing. The most prominent one is at the top and coincides with the 22.5mm from the notch float setting. But I must say that I'm not sure these lines can really tell you anything since you will never know if the bike was always on the side stand or center stand or if it was parked on unlevel ground for a long period of time. But it was interesting to see that the level in the bowl was for some extended period, above the gasket surface.

So, my conclusion as mentioned above it that the Loud Mouse setting of the top of the jet is what I believe is correct and what I will use from here on out.

regards,
Rob

Rob

Great work! Thanks for sharing. A little bit of science goes a long way.

G
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

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brewsky
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Post by brewsky » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:08 am

Good investigation, Rob.

I had the exact same question about the Dream carb, but there was never a definitive answer there either.

I found that a couple mm difference in fuel level translated to about 0.5% difference in AFR in the Dream carb, but it was not consistent across the carb slide position range.

It would be nice if one could find the actual design value for "H", but that seems unavailable.
66 dream, 78 cb750k, 02fz1, 09 wing

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Snakeoil
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Post by Snakeoil » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:53 pm

Today I had to go thru the carbs again. Engine acted up and it was carburetion. Could have been dirt as I did not find anything wrong. But pulled them off and stripped them down anyway.

There is a hint to the "what is H?" question, Brewski. If you look at the Construction section of the 250/300 manual, on page 115 there is a diagram of the carburetor that shows all the internals AND a fuel level. I have to assume this is the full fuel level. You'll note that the fuel level is just above the bottom of the head of the pilot jet. This makes sense because if the pilot jet is not submerged the port in the throat of the carb would simply draw air thru the bowl vent via the unsubmerged pilot jet.

I wish I knew someone who was deep into carburetor design theory. But I think that in order for an engine to idle properly, the pilot jet must be submerged. So, assuming that is correct, then if the float is set for too low a fuel level, this would cause a good running engine to die when dropped to idle after a fast run. It would not idle until the flow from the tank filled the bowls again to submerge the pilot. So, if you lower the fuel level 1mm for example, there is a better chance of this happening than if it were where it should be.

I just put my carbs back on my bike so I'm not taking them off to measure again. But if someone has a 26mm carb from a CB/CL77 handy, it would be nice to know what the distance from the top of the pilot to the bore is. Then, knowing the thickness of the head, we could subtract that and come up with a theoretical H dimension. Knowing H would allow us to confirm H by setting the float at the h dimension and checking H.

I know LM is going to get annoyed that we are beating this subject again. But I like to know WHY things are what they are, not just WHAT they should be. So that is why I'm restarting this thread again.

I do know someone at AMAL that might be able to shed light on this. I'll bet that the pilot jet is the primary determining factor for fuel level and not the main jet and wide open running as the main is much deeper in the bowl and below the max fuel level.

regards,
Rob

rrietman
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Post by rrietman » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:41 am

Rob; of course the idle jet must be submerged, that's half your throttle. I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve, but setting the float height by Ed's method or the book (using the carb base, no gasket, no notch) will get you a good running carb, every time. If you want to really know what the fuel level is, you could do what a lot of automotive tuners do and mount some sort of standpipe out of the float bowl and try and duplicate the level drawings/specs in the old manuals.
good luck
Randy

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G-Man
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Post by G-Man » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:49 am

Rob

Sometimes it is just quicker to accept things as they are, but it is in all of us to try to understand if possible. Like any mechanical system the actual fuel level or float height will vary a little as there will be a bit of hysteresis between cut in and cut out of the float valve. Add in some vibration and you are attempting to get the 'average' in the middle of an acceptable range.

If it helps, I have in my hand a NOS PW26 carb intended for a CL77. I am happy to do some measurements for you with this carb... :-)

ImagePW-26-2.jpg by graham.curtis, on Flickr

ImagePW26-1.jpg by graham.curtis, on Flickr



G
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

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