honda305 Home honda305 Auctions honda305 Gallery honda305 Forum


honda305.com Forum

Login
□ Search
□ FAQ 
□ 
Vintage Honda Owners,
Restorers, Riders and
Admirers

Oil at spark plugs

Woodsie
honda305.com Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:45 am
Location: Tri-Cities WA state

Oil at spark plugs

Post by Woodsie » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:36 pm

I was taking the spark plugs to look at the color. There was some oil around sealing washer on both sides so the oil is from the exterior. That is my question, where can this oil be coming from?

Vince Lupo
honda305.com Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:17 am

Post by Vince Lupo » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:41 pm

I've posted this reply in a couple of other threads over the last several years, but I'll post it here too.

Honda had sent out a service bulletin regarding this phenomenon back in the 1960's, and it has to do with the cast iron 'skull' separating from the aluminum castings of the cylinder head, thereby causing a seepage at the joint around the spark plug holes. They said that other than it being a mess, it wasn't anything to really worry about. Mine does it too.

This info is via Bill Silver:

"SL #65 6/1/66 HONDA MOTORCYCLE SERVICE BULLETINS
OIL SEEPAGE NEAR SPARK PLUGS IN ENGINES WITH ALUMINUM CYLINDER HEADS

American Honda receives occasional complaints of the tendency for certain models with
aluminum cylinder heads to seep a small quantity of oil near the spark plugs. In some cases,
dealers have replaced cylinder heads in an effort to eliminate this seepage. This bulletin is
intended to clarify our policy in relation to this problem, and to suggest some countermeasures
that we have found to be effective. In cases where it can be confirmed that the spark plug sealing
washers are not leaking, accumulation of a stain, or oil residue, near the spark plugs can be traced
to oil seepage from the joint between the combustion chamber "skull" and the aluminum cylinder
head casting. Since the spark plugs are threaded into the iron skull, rather than into the soft
aluminum casting, this joint must "come to the surface" near the spark plugs. Although it is no
mystery how oil reaches the outside of the engine, it is difficult to determine the source of the oil.
Apparently, oil reaches the joint from the oil-bearing chambers through internal porosity in the
aluminum casting; such porosity is extremely difficult to avoid. Once oil enters the joint, it has an
almost unimpeded leak path to the outside because the skull is not bonded to the head casting.
Our studies have shown that machines experiencing this problem can be graded into three broad
categories, based on the severity; each category should be dealt with in a different manner:

1. A stain or oily residue collects near the spark plugs over a period of several days or weeks.
Seepage of this magnitude should be considered a normal, inescapable consequence of the
cylinder head design, and no repair should be attempted. Customers complaining of such seepage
should be assured that no defect exists; suggest more frequent cleaning of the engine.

2. More severe seepage causes definite accumulation of liquid near the plugs; following a hard
run, oil droplets or streaks can be found on the air cleaner covers, etc. Although a "defect" is not
necessarily indicated by this seepage, countermeasures are often necessary to satisfy customers.
We have found that seepage can be slowed or stopped in the following manner: a) Remove spark
plugs and completely clean the region around the plug holes so that the joint between the skull
and the casting can be seen. b) Using a dull punch, punch a ring of depressions, tangent to each
other, in the aluminum immediately outside of the joint.

3. Liquid oil "bubbles" from the skull/head casting joint, puffs of vapor can be seen when the
engine is suddenly accelerated. In these cases, a definite defect is indicated, i.e., actual
separation of the skull and head casting. In most cases, however, the cylinder, rather than the
cylinder head , is the faulty part. We have found this problem to be most commonly related to
"sinkage" of the cylinder sleeve in the cylinder casting, such that the upper surface of the cylinder
sleeve is below the upper surface of the cylinder casting. When this "sinkage" occurs, the
Honda 250-305 Super Hawk Restoration & Maintenance Guide
combustion chamber skull is not forced into intimate contact with the cylinder head casting and
severe oil or vapor leakage, near the sparkplugs can occur. The recommended repair is, of
course, to locate and replace the faulty part.

Source: SL #68 4/29/66 HONDA MOTORCYCLE SERVICE BULLETINS"

Woodsie
honda305.com Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:45 am
Location: Tri-Cities WA state

Post by Woodsie » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:09 am

Thank you. That clears that up.

User avatar
sarals
honda305.com Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:19 pm
Location: Monterey Peninsula, California

Post by sarals » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:41 pm

Vince, great info! My engine has ALWAYS done that, I recall seeing oil around the plugs from "way back when", in the '70's when I was riding it regularly. It still does it to a mild degree, and I assumed it was seeping down from the cam bearing cover and ignition housing. It's great to finally have a mystery solved!
1965 CB77 305 Super Hawk
1989 NT650 Hawk GT
1981 Yamaha XJ550 Seca

User avatar
G-Man
honda305.com Member
Posts: 5678
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Derby, UK
Contact:

Post by G-Man » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:57 pm

Being a cynical Brit, I detect a little evasion of responsibilities in Honda's message. To admit a real design flaw would have been very expensive. Interestingly, early Dream motors, don't have the iron skull and don't have the leak....

My friend owned a Volkswagen Golf which leaked gas from the carburetor and made his wife ill. After fitting three replacement carburetors they finally gave up and said "they all do that sir" claiming they had done 'everything'. He sued them and got his money back for the car. They met their match ......

G
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

User avatar
sarals
honda305.com Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:19 pm
Location: Monterey Peninsula, California

Post by sarals » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:32 pm

Met their match, indeed!

I don't recall any of the later Honda motorcycle engines having the oiling issue - perhaps, after the 250/305, Honda did away with the iron skull?
1965 CB77 305 Super Hawk
1989 NT650 Hawk GT
1981 Yamaha XJ550 Seca

User avatar
G-Man
honda305.com Member
Posts: 5678
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:17 pm
Location: Derby, UK
Contact:

Post by G-Man » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:59 am

Sara

No I think the skull was a short(ish) lived experiment.

Early Honda CB400Fs used to leak around the head joint but that was just due to poor sealing. They put longer studs in later models but I cannot quite see how that would fix the problem.....:-) Luckily, I have a later one but it still weeps a little.

G

sarals wrote:Met their match, indeed!

I don't recall any of the later Honda motorcycle engines having the oiling issue - perhaps, after the 250/305, Honda did away with the iron skull?
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

Post Reply
cron




 

CB-77 | CYP-77 | Road Test | Riding Log | Literature | Zen | Marketplace | VJ Survey | Links | Home