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Carburetor intake insulator and o-ring damage

Fuel System: Gas (Petrol) tanks, Carburators
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Snakeoil
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Carburetor intake insulator and o-ring damage

Post by Snakeoil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:47 am

Hi guys. Been away for a while working on my Triumph. The Motogiro is right around the corner and I'm going thru my CL77 to get it ready.

I've had issues with this bike with it running on one cylinder. I've talked about it here and there is a thread on the topic. I think what I'm going to bring up here is related to the issue.

Several years ago, during a troubleshooting expedition, I removed the carbs and found one of the insulator spacer o-ring grooves broken thru. I had a spare and replaced it. Today, when I pulled the carbs, I found the same thing. Actually I found one broken thru to the outside in exactly the same place (had saved the old one) and the other had the o-ring pinched between the insulator and the head. O-rings on both carb flanges were perfect. Here are some pics.

Here is the insulator I found today and the one I found a few years ago. Note that the failure is identical. The one with the light tan facture surface is the one from a few years back.

Image
Image

Here is how today's find looked when I removed it from the engine.

Image

Here is what the undamaged insulator looked like with the o-ring trying to escape.

Image

So, my first question is how necessary is that insulator block? Can I machine new spacers from aluminum and be done with it. Or is there enough heat conduction thru the carb flange that I need those insulators. I'd prefer to eliminate the o-ring against the head and just use a gasket with an aluminum spacer.

I suspect that the O-rings, which were sourced locally, may be expanding from exposure to gasoline. I think they are nitrile, not Viton. I may have also put in a size that was a tad too big and expansion has caused them to burst thru the side of the insulator. Both were broken where the numbers are engraved, which makes for a stress riser at that point.

Anyone here have spares they'll part with? I need one. Being Sunday, I won't know if I can find them with dealers or vendors until tomorrow, and may have to wait until Tuesday since many shops are closed on Mondays.

Thanks,
Rob

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G-Man
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Post by G-Man » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:37 pm

Rob

I think that the insulator block plays a useful part in keeping heat from the carb.

You seem to have diagnosed your own problem. If you are stuck for next weekend I would turn the O-ring around and use it as a mold to fill the gap with epoxy. (maybe oil it first).

Then when the epoxy is set, rub it flat on abrasive paper, then use a smaller O-ring. That should get you going until you can find new insulators. I have a pile of them but it would take too long to get them to you.

Hope that helps a bit....

G
'60 C77 '60 C72 '62 C72 Dream '63 CL72
'61 CB72 '64 CB77 '65 CB160
'66 Matchless 350 '67 CL77
'67 S90 '77 CB400F

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Snakeoil
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Post by Snakeoil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:20 pm

Thanks G-man. I thought about repairing them. Since posting, I did find a guy with a pile of them for sale on ebay. $40/pair. They are late Honda reproductions and do not have the numbers engraved in them. To me, that's a good thing.

I think I might buy a 3/8" sheet of black Delrin a make two new replacements.

I realized today that the insulators have tapered bores. That is what the 25-26 means on the insulators. So, you could, but shoulding just bolt the carb up to the head as it will put a step in the intake path and create a lot of turbulence.

Has anyone ever run one of these without the insulator blocks in place, using an appropriately tapered aluminum spacer?

regards,
Rob

Hoosier Tom
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Post by Hoosier Tom » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:40 pm

Rob,

A guy on eBay has a set of 25-26 spacers buy it now for $10 plus shipping. Item 221411038554 .

HT

Eljeef
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Post by Eljeef » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:24 pm

I had a damaged insulator as well. As a temporary fix I used Qwik JB Weld and filled in the broken area using a light cardboard mold and then filed to shape. Worked very well.
Jeff H.
1964-C77 305 Dream
2002 BMW R1150GS

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Snakeoil
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Post by Snakeoil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:21 pm

Thanks for the link, Tom. Have not had time to check out what might be on ebay. They do look good.

I have a plan to revive the broken ones. Rather than repair them to use an o-ring. I'm going to fill in the entire groove and the broken area with epoxy and use a cut gasket. This is how Triumph did it. I've nothing to lose and it might be an improvement.

regards,
Rob

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Snakeoil
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Post by Snakeoil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Change my mind. Fixed them so they are as original and still use the o-ring.

Used JB Weld Kwik because it has a higher temp rating than normal JB Weld. We'll see how it holds up to the fuel. My tests with JB Weld and ethanol laced fuels shows it does get rubbery. But as long as it does not lose it's bond, it should be okay. Plus, there should be no fuel on the repair side.

I had a square cross-section rubber ring I used to form the groove wall. Couple coats of Johnson's Paste wax worked good as a mold release. Used masking tape for the outside form.

Here are the repaired insulators.

Image

I'm going to buy those two spacers on e-bay just to have them.

Will put the bike back together tomorrow and report back.

Thanks,
Rob

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