Yet another VIN/Year Model Question

[Juanmeaux]

I am brand new to this forum so let me beg forgiveness up front if I do something wrong.

I have acquired a 305 Dream without a title and am currently working with NCDMV to get one. In doing so, I have to assign a year to the bike in the application process. I have read everything I could find on this subject on this forum but still have some questions.

It was represented to be a 1967 model, but the engine# is CA77E-1010774 and the frame# is CA78-1010627. I realize from the threads that it could be a 1967 if it was sold in that year but I have no way, that I know of, to learn this. The threads seem to indicate to me that it was built in 1965, maybe 1966, but more likely 1965.

Does this sound reasonable to you more experienced members?

Thanks in advance!

[conbs]

You are on track with it likely being built in 1965, but maybe '66. The white tag may be farther up on the harness inside your frame. If I understand correctly, the tag will only tell you when the harness was made. However, for titling purposes, this bike would have almost certainly been given the "year" in which it was sold.

Your DMV should be able to do a 50-state check to make sure the bike has not been reported stolen somewhere. In fact, as soon as you give/gave them the numbers it is the first thing they should do. As they do that check, they may also find a state where your bike was titled previously. For simplicity you should probably use whatever year was on that title. Sometimes they have access to info they don't normally share with the public. If you are charming to the person helping you, they may give you their "advice" on what year to put on your new title.

I assume there is no license plate. That would be another way to get at the info. Does the PO have it? Do you have any idea why the bike was represented as a '67? Maybe the seller has more information that would help you.

Do you know the state where it was last licensed? It should be titled there as well and you may be able to go to their DMV or maybe even their historical society to find some old records.

If you can't find it using any of those routes you are going to have to just pick a year. For it to be titled as a '65 originally, it would have to have been sold almost immediately when it came to the dealer, which would most likely to have been later in the year. It is possible, but less likely than that it sold in '66, unless it sat around at the dealer until '67 before it was sold. You probably get the idea that it will just be your best guess if this is where you end up.

Remember that these bikes were not sold as a "model year" like we are used to dealing with for US cars. Even the parts manuals just give frame numbers and engine numbers - not year of manufacture or model year. To compound matters, Honda was growing so rapidly at the time that their "records" leave a lot to be desired. Bill Silver shared a Honda sales chart for "CA77" with me. It doesn't show any CA78 sales even though 305 Dreams produced after April 1963 were all CA78's. The chart also shows sales clear into 1970 even though production of CA78's ended in 1967.

I hope this is helpful to you in your quest to get a title. Welcome to the Dream world.

[Juanmeaux]

I want to thank you so much for taking the time to offer so many great ideas. I am going to organize some cheat notes from your post for my meeting on Monday with the DMV. There was a title with my bike that the last owner felt was the appropriate document. It was from the early 70s in NJ. It turned out that no one had located the VIN on the frame, as everyone was looking around the forks. This is also where the 1967 year model originated. This title was also for a CL model bike so it was totally different. I was able to read enough on this forum to locate the VIN and when it was different from the title the house of cards started to fall.

I did want to try and be as accurate as possible on establishing as accurate a year model as possible for this bike, in case the other avenues did not offer anything better. I also went back to the bike late yesterday and removed the carb, air cleaner, etc. to take a better look for the white harness tag. It was then that I noticed the slight edge of a sticker on the very top of the harness. It turned out to be the tag and was dated 1965. If nothing better turns up, I think I'll use that for the new title. Thank you again for all your efforts. If we don't turn up anything after exhausting your punchlist, at least i know we gave it our best shot.

I also thought that some other newbies might benefit from seeing what the tag looked like, once it was located.


Wire Harness Sticker by Juanmeaux, on Flickr

[conbs]

Juan, Good work on finding the tag. It is at least a place to start.

Ask your DMV guy, but I think "VIN" has a specific meaning to comply with federal law that became applicable in 1968 (?). Since your bike was made before then, I don't think it has one, but rather has a frame number and that is what you will use for your title.

You are correct that the title you got for a '67 CL is for a different bike and of no value at all in your current quest.

If you can get it titled (even with a provisional title) using just your bill of sale, I would do it. Your DMV has a process for dealing with situations just like yours. Let them do their work.

If you do need more information for some reason, let us know.

Best wishes for your success.

[bluej58]

Thanks for the picture , I am just getting rolling on a 305 Dream project my self and had no idea were to look.

JD