C78E and CA78E engines

[flathead]

Anybody got a clue as to what is going on here?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-Honda-305- ... _139wt_885

CA78E and C78E engine cases?
I saw this “RARE” engine on Ebay the other day and it kinda slapped me in the face.
I’d been looking at the same thing on a set of engine cases that I’ve been debating whether or not to use on a little custom job. Seems from the seller that I have got a rarer set than his as mine is 9 numbers lower and mine was stamped over C78E where his is stamped over CA78E . Could this engine have been the very first C78 ? For what its worth, the engine came out of a 65 Superhawk that I bought at Walnecks Swap Meet about 5 years ago for $20 (actually it was 2 for $40 with titles)

Mark

[jensey]

Hi,

According to my information, there are no official C78 CA78 engines cases.
These are probably new unmarked engine cases, stamped with the frame number of the particular bike, I have seen that more than once.

But you never know for sure.

Jensen

[conbs]

I have made the statement on this site before that "all CA77 and CA78 Dreams came with CA77E engines." I think I was wrong (but, probably just barely). I now think it is more likely than not that these cases came from the factory with the numbers stamped and then changed. That is a guess on my part, but I think it is correct because:

1. Mid 1963 is when Honda changed from the C/CA77 to the C/CA78. There is overlap in the numbers. The highest CA77 frame number I have seen is CA77 312041. The lowest CA78 frame number I have seen is CA78-310###. It's not that I have seen every bike, but there is clearly overlap. My best guess is that these Dreams were produced at Honda's Saitama plant in several production lines. and that could account for the overlap in the numbers as frames were lined up and made up on the different lines. There was a point in time on each line where the change was made. These two "CA78E" cases were probably in the production line at the precise moment that change began. The normal Honda way would have been to have the model reflected on the frame and engine to match as is seen here. A lack of communication with the guy(s) stamping the engines would account for the CA77 being originally stamped and then changed to CA78 to try to "fix" the "problem". I do not have an explanation as to why that "fix" would have been abandoned except to note that Honda ended up putting a 5,000 unit gap between the frame and engine numbers on CA78's for 1963 only. These cases are not only consistent with that, but seem to represent Honda's initial attempt at the fix with the "0" being replaced with a "5" in the thousand position. The general Honda rule of those numbers being within about 200 applies for all (almost) CA77's and also the CA78's produced after 1963. It is not the case only for '63 CA78. That 5,000 unit spread seems to have been Honda's ultimate fix for 1963 CA78's, apparently after the fix on these two case (and some additional number) became too messy as seen in these photos.

2. Honda's growth at this time was mind boggling. For some reason the change from C/CA77 to C/CA78 created a lot of issues for Honda as is reflected in the large number of anomalies in the parts manuals. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that someone got fired over it. That these two engine cases show up marked the way that they are is inconsistent with the way Honda did just about everything else, but consistent with the difficulties Honda somehow experienced around 305 Dreams it produced in the 1960's.

3. There would be no reason for an owner to make such a change. Why would someone want to change case numbers to something that doesn't exist (except for these two and a few more examples)? What would an owner be trying to fix by changing a "0" to a "5"? It could have been done out of ignorance or chance, but the above explanation seems more plausible to me.

I want to repeat that this is my best guess and only my opinion. I know I can't prove that I am right. I don't think that these numbers make the cases any more valuable ($250 for cases ???) If I am right, it is just interesting Honda trivia and if I am wrong - they are phoney cases and probably worth nothing. Now, if they were still on a '63 CA78 that might be different.

Anyone else have a "CA78" top case? Anyone else have a different explanation? Anyone else obsess over this Honda trivia even half as much as I do?

Flathead, I hope this is helpful to you and others.

[G-Man]

Conbs

Really interesting stuff. I still find it difficult to understand why Honda chose to renumber the CA77 to CA78 when they didn't do that with any other model. Leaving the engines as CA77 when they had no other model to fit them in suggest that they had some plans that they aborted.

Why no CA73?

Keep up the good work!

G

[conbs]

Conbs

Really interesting stuff. I still find it difficult to understand why Honda chose to renumber the CA77 to CA78 when they didn't do that with any other model. Leaving the engines as CA77 when they had no other model to fit them in suggest that they had some plans that they aborted.

Why no CA73?

Keep up the good work!

G

No CA73. But, I did run across a beautiful 1963 CA72 that has the late style luggage supports like the CA78. It had 5,000 miles on it at the time. It is now owned by a local guy and was first owned by his uncle so he can document it as an original bike. There is about 15,600 difference between the frame and engine numbers.

I don't know much about the 250's and I have no explanation for the difference in the frame and engine numbers on that bike. It does seem generally consistent with the 5,000 gap on the 1963 CA78's, but why 15,600? Strange things were going on along the Dream production lines in 1963.

Anyone else have a 1963 CA72 with a similar gap in the numbers?

[Bob750]

I'm rebuilding my wife's 1964 Dream 305 (CA78-105658 / CA77E-105667). I did a little research on these bikes before and after the purchase. (I should have done more before, and we could have paid less by knowing to check for more things during the inspection... but I digress.) In my research I found this interesting article by Bill Silver from May of 2012.

I think it validates conbs' assertions about the provenance of these two cases--a little hint at stuff going on behind the scenes at the factory around the time of the change to CA78. I'd agree that these are special and rare, but only as it shines a light on a F-up at the plant that spanned a handful of engines. But there must have been enough engines stamped wrong that scrapping them would have been too costly. The right thing to do if it were only a few would be to toss them into the smelter and recycle the aluminum and make sure the next ones were stamped correctly.

You'll note that in 1961 the serial numbers were six digits starting with 110001, then from 1962 - 1964 serial numbers started with the digit of the year. For some reason they wanted to start over after the change to CA78, so the 1964s kept the six-digit format and began at 100001, instead of 400001. (To the uninitiated one might think they were looking at a 1961 bike...) But then in the middle of that model year they started numbering them 400001, perhaps realizing that it made no sense to have the '64s numbered like the '61s should have been in the first place... THEN again when the 1965 production run started, they said screw it, were going to seven digits with no change between model years, only to cease production about two years later.

[conbs]

Bob,

I am actually the guy Bill Silver refers to in the article so the info in this thread is not really confirmation so much as me just repeating what I thought at the time to be true.

I have not seem any information about the two different frame number series for 1964. Where did you find info about Honda changing in mid year? Do you know if there is any difference between the 1964 305 Dreams that are the 10xxxx series versus the 40xxxx?